Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

CBS: Your Majesty, thank you for doing this; we appreciate your taking the time. From your viewpoint, what is the news of the day?

King Abdullah: We were gratified with President Bush's statement in asking for the Israeli armed forces to pull out as quickly as possible, the vision of a Palestinian independent state, linked to [UN Resolutions] 242 and 338 that has given a lot of hope to us in the area, but we have seen since that statement the continued military actions by the Israeli army that are creating tremendous suffering and destruction of the Palestinian people and we are even more concerned then we were three days ago.

CBS: Why are you even more concerned now?

King Abdullah: Well the escalation of violence; we know the people in Palestinian territories are suffering from basic human needs- water, electricity, simple things of humanity have been cut off to them. We know it from Amnesty International that the prisoners are not being treated well, ambulances are being shot at; that rescue workers are not being allowed in to move about freely. Even the press have been jostled around quite a bit and if this military action continues I don't think that the Middle East can handle this strain at all, at all.

CBS: You don't think the Middle East can handle the strain. Let's explore that, what do you mean by that?

King Abdullah: Well, there has been rising anger and frustration towards Israel because of the daily images we see on our televisions of innocent people being hurt, maimed, even killed by the Israeli army. And that frustration has never been to the level that we are seeing today. Unfortunately, also, the anger is being levelled at the United States because they don't believe that America, being fortunately the only country that could deal with this problem, is being transparent enough or moving quickly enough. Now I did say the president came out with a statement, but we need action on the ground as quickly as possible.

CBS: What action would you prefer?

King Abdullah: A call from the United States again to insist, as the president said, to stop the Israeli army manoeuvring in the West Bank to pull them away from Palestinian cities and bring some normality back to the lives of the Palestinians. Our impression is the Israelis want to continue this for several weeks and it has to stop today.

CBS: If the Israelis were to continue this for two more weeks what would the effect be in the region?

King Abdullah: I think it would be devastating. It shows the Israelis objectives are to continue with their military operations irrelevant of what everybody else says. I think this is the fallacy of the Israeli position. They have always believed this is a security problem, this is not a security problem it's a political one, it's a political one because we need to have the aspiration of the Palestinian people achieved. The Israelis are saying to the Americans that you have to have security before you can have peace. Your president said in a speech a few days ago you can't have security if you don't have peace, we need to get both sides back to the table as quickly as possible and stop the violence.

CBS: What do you make of the president's – it can only be described as – harsh words directed toward Arafat?

King Abdullah: I think he committed harsh words to all sides and I think we need to be able to take those comments in stride and act on them. What we have to remember is Arafat is the sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. He is their symbol. And I know that their talks by the Israelis that Arafat is irrelevant and that we shouldn't deal with Arafat, but you can't as leaders pick who you want to deal with. They may not like Arafat, well the Arab world doesn't like Sharon, but he's not irrelevant. I think you have to negotiate with Arafat and with his team and to be able to get them back to the peace table, anybody else would be unacceptable here in the Middle East.

CBS: When I talk to leaders of the Israeli government military leaders, political leaders, almost to a person they all say: not only is Arafat irrelevant - we cannot, we will not deal with him - he has to go. Either he has to be exiled somewhere or contained, but they couldn't be clearer, they say he's lied to us, he's betrayed us as well as the United States and the rest of the Arab world; he's got to go. Is that a possibility?

King Abdullah: I sincerely hope not. Again as I said, you can't pick other peoples leaders, Arafat and for that matter, Sharon were both elected by their people. You have to deal with leaders. I have never known throughout history that countries that have been at war with each other that have liked the leaders on the other side and have respected or trusted them, but you do need the leaders at the end of the day to be able sit down and negotiate. If we go with the line of the Israelis that Arafat is not the man Arafat is irrelevant and you pick someone else who, then by the Israeli argument, is not irrelevant. Do we continue changing the Palestinian leadership till the Israelis find some one who is amiable to them? It's never happened anywhere else in the world.

CBS: Is there anyone who could succeed Arafat and bring peace?

King Abdullah: I don't want to even look at that because I believe Arafat being the sole representative of the Palestinian people, that is his responsibility and we need to help and support him to achieve that.

CBS: The US Secretary of State Collin Powell is coming here, coming to the region, do you have any counsel for him, any advice for him?

King Abdullah: I'm concerned with the news that Colin Powell may not see Arafat. He will be meeting with us here in Jordan, in Egypt, and with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and I presume with Sharon, to make this thing work he also needs to meet with Arafat. That would be my first advice. My second advice would be that we have to keep the pressure on, we can't delay American involvement any longer and we have to make it very clear to both sides that violence is not an alternative and we have to get past the violence to negotiations as quickly as possible. Whether that means the Tenet or the Mitchell, but also you have to remember the second track that we have and that is the Saudi peace proposal, something that was done by the conference of Saudi Arabia, Prince Abdullah, a very aggressive, far-reaching proposal that was accepted by all the countries in Beirut that offered the olive branch to the Israeli people. That they want to have peace with Israel they want Israel to be part of the neighbourhood, they want to have normal ties. So there’re two approaches the Secretary of State has to do: de-escalate the violence get the Israelis and Palestinians back on track, and also keep pushing the Saudi agenda that brings hope and peace for the whole region.

CBS: You said the goal is to get a separate independent Palestinian state, what about the Israeli argument that goes along these lines: Yasser Arafat now smells total victory, he's not after a Palestinian state, what he's after is the destruction of Israel and neither he nor those most closely aligned with him are going to rest until they've achieved that?

King Abdullah: This is the first time that I hear of such a thing and it sounds ludicrous to me. There are extremists there that have always proposed that theory but I thought that ideal had died in the 60s. I believe that Arafat, given the chance, wants an independent Palestinian state linked to [UN Resolutions] 242 or 338, but the destruction of Israel would be ludicrous and I would be very surprised if Arafat or his people would even entertain the idea.

CBS: Do you see any way out of this?

King Abdullah: It comes down to I think it come down to the flaw in the Israeli strategy of linking this to security. Once the Israelis understand this is a political problem, the argument of terrorism for example, is the argument they use with the United States -- that America suffered on the 11th of Sept. and therefore we, and the Israelis, are going through the same thing. No that's not ideally true. Not that we condone anybody in the Middle East who commits terrorism, but what happened in America happened on an innocent nation, you were innocent victims. What you have to remember here in the territories is Israel is an occupying force. The Palestinians have been under occupation for 35 years. Now they have been amiable with the Israeli government for the past six to seven years since the PNA was set up to try and deal with what was promised to them by the Israeli government. And the intifada happened simply because those aspirations were not met. This is an occupying country, the only country in the world that is occupying another people, and people fail to understand that. This occupying force denies Palestinians their lands, their freedoms, their dignity, a hope to command their future and when we understand that is the core of the problem, then I think both sides can move forward.

CBS: Is it or is it not your opinion that by delaying the arrival of Secretary of State Colin Powell to Israel for late in this week, that in effect President Bush and the Americans are giving the Israelis time to push their military operations?

King Abdullah: I hope that was not the intention by the Americans. The delay of the Secretary of State Colin Powell in the region is something I had wished was not the case, I had hoped to see him in the region quicker, so we could put a stop to the military activities sooner.

CBS: What happens if Colin Powell doesn't see Yasser Arafat?

King Abdullah: It will show the Palestinian people and the Arab people that there is an unbalanced approach to dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian issue. The Arabs and Palestinians all alike whether some like Arafat or don't look at him as a symbol and of the Palestinian people. And if you are going to negotiate a deal or try to bring two sides together you have to talk to both sides and Arafat is the man that is the symbol that is the leader of the Palestinian people, and I hope our friends in the United States understand that.

CBS: Majesty, there are steps you can take against Israel, you can reduce a diplomatic presence and you can break diplomatic ties; are you considering, contemplating anything such as that?

King Abdullah: Well this has been a major issue in Jordan and even further afield. Unfortunately whenever there are issues like these it causes a lot of rhetoric, rhetoric from some quarters in Jordan and rhetoric from those living a lot further away from Jordan that really don't know the issue as we do, living here in the neighbourhood. Let's look at the practicality of that issue. What we're doing now is trying to support and serve the Palestinians as best we can under the extreme circumstances they are living under. We have been working the phones over the past several weeks to try and bring calm and stability to the area to the point of even getting Arafat his food, his water for his medication, electricity to him when it was cut off. We have a military field hospital in the West Bank, that has been there for over a year, that has carried out over 600 major surgical operations; we have treated 70,000 Palestinians in the past 12 months. Could you do that if you didn't have relations? We are the lifeline, we are only avenue of medical support, of supplies to be able to get to the Palestinian people, to be able to get Palestinians that need health care, medical support out of the West Bank. These are the issues one has to consider and it's not as simple as unfortunately some of the rhetoric and the grandstanding that we've been hearing in the area since the problems first started.

CBS: I want to make sure I understand what you are saying, is it not under active consideration now to reduce diplomatic ties with Israel?

King Abdullah: Again, would that serve Palestinians? I don't think it would at this stage. But the Israelis have got to understand what they are doing is completely wrong that they are affecting the relationship that we have with them, they are losing friends, moderate friends they have in the Middle East, in particular in Jordan. And if the military campaign continues it does seriously affect the relationship we have with Israel. I do not want to allow the extremists, those that want war and hatred to continue to win this round, but the Israelis have also to understand the violence they perpetuate makes it difficult for us who want peace and stability to have the moral authority to be able to work this problem out.

CBS: Are there any political or diplomatic moves you're ready to take against Israel at this time?

King Abdullah: No decision has been made at this time. But we are considering the issues that we have with Israel. I have to look at the bigger picture, how does it serve the Palestinians and what does it do to the Israelis and trying to move them into the peace process? At the moment I guess the answer can be no. But we do hope the Israelis understand what they are doing to the Palestinians is unacceptable and that we are very angry, very frustrated here in Jordan and we will not tolerate this to continue much longer.

CBS: Since Hosni Mubarak, the president of Egypt, has reduced diplomatic ties with Israel, how much if any additional pressure has that put on you to do the same?

King Abdullah: Well there is always tremendous pressure but again one has to differentiate between rhetoric and what is the right thing to do and what is the good thing to do in light of what the Palestinians are going through. Jordan has been used to pressure all our lives, so this is nothing new. It is again what makes sense and is the right thing to do for our people and the Palestinians. That is what guides the decision cycle, at least for me and my government.

CBS: How close or far are we from having a war that will spread to the rest of the region?

King Abdullah: We are always under this present climate very close to that possibility. And that is why it is very imperative for the Israelis to understand that what they are doing is no longer tolerated in the Middle East and again our hope is that our friends in America understand the importance of putting a stop to the Israeli army actions that could easily escalate to beyond the borders of Israel and Palestine.

CBS: If the Israelis move military operations into southern Lebanon to deal with what they consider to be the real and present danger of Hezbollah forces there, not the Syrians, not the Lebanese, but the Hezbollah forces there, what would be the consequences of that?

King Abdullah: This is the fault that I hope Israel will not be allowed to perpetuate, if you are going to shift the problem politically from what is happening to the territories to be able to shift public opinion to what is Lebanon and Syria and not deal with issues at hand. I think that would be very unfortunate. We have to remember that it is the political argument -- that we are saying: solve the political problem. Don't shift it for your own political agenda onto other countries in the area. We, as the international community, are upset about what is happening between Israelis and Palestinians, we want to solve that. And I think it would be a tremendous mistake for Israel to then shift the attention elsewhere to try and lessen the impact of what is going on with the Palestinians at this time.

CBS: How long has it been since things have been this bad in the region?

King Abdullah: The last calamity was obviously 1990, the Gulf War and before that ‘73 and '67. We have always been up and down in the Middle East, we have seen desperate times before, that's something I learned from His Late Majesty-- at hard times we don't need to give up. I always say I am optimistic. I am not optimistic at the moment, but I don't want to give up either. And I think this is high time for leaders to step forward bring common sense and stability to the region as soon as possible.

CBS: There's been new talk of so-called transference in which some prominent Israelis have said we now have to deal in transference. Is Jordan prepared to take additional Palestinians into your country?

King Abdullah: Not at all and that is a tremendous red line, as far as the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan is concerned. This is something I have been very clear to the Israeli government and to the American administration that we will never allow another diaspora of Palestinians to be displaced from their homeland.

CBS: No way.

King Abdullah: No way.

CBS: Under no circumstances?

King Abdullah: Under no circumstances. This would be a catastrophe to the future of Palestinian state. It would be extremely detrimental to Jordan. We, as Jordanians, would not accept that. And I would close the bridges immediately. And that is the quickest way for Israel to have a quibble with Jordan is to try and use that argument. The future is a Palestinian state for Palestinian people linked to [UN resolutions] 242 and 338 and not to try and solve the problem by throwing it on Jordan's back.

CBS: Are you prepared under any circumstances to take in Yasser Arafat?

King Abdullah: No, because that would not solve the problem. By him leaving the territories, it would weaken the Palestinian cause, it would set us back to before Oslo and it would be the destruction of everything that all of us have worked for, including His Late Majesty King Hussein and Prime Minister Rabin in bringing the Israeli and Palestinian problem to the forefront. Arafat, I believe, understands that he knows he needs to stay in the territories, and he needs to be able to deal with this problem. I don't think he would accept leaving the West Bank either.

CBS: Has Arafat's stature in the Arab world risen, fallen, or remained the same since he's been virtually imprisoned in his own compound?

King Abdullah: Well, again, if the Israelis are using the argument that we want to weaken Arafat so they can deal better with the Palestinian issue, what they've done by the military incursion has not only made him into a hero, but made him into a saint. There have a been a series of policies that have been going on with the Israelis agenda you made Arafat the all time hero of the Middle East by doing this and you've pushed all moderate Arabs closer and closer into the extremist movement.

CBS: I give you an opportunity to speak directly to the American people, if you think there something you think needs to be said, this is an opportunity to say it.

King Abdullah: I think that Americans, being Americans, and having known Americans for most of my life, have long been a people that have held to high ethics, moral values, transparency and fairness. And when they look at the Middle East they have never been fully attuned to both sides of the problem. And I hope that with this situation they become more aware that there are two sides to the story, that at the end of the day this is not a security problem, this is a political issue, one that needs to be resolved as quickly as possible. If we want Israelis and Palestinians to live together then we have to go down the political track and not that of security.

We're looking at a world again behind the Saudi peace proposal that offers an olive branch to the Israeli people to have peace not only with the Palestinians if they have their future and their state and a chance to direct their lives, but with the rest of the Arab world. That can only be done when Israel decides to deal with the situation as a political problem and not that of security. You cannot have security if you don't have peace. And I hope the American people with their friends and with their desire to bring transparency and support for all innocent people and to understand what is happening on the ground, the calamity that has befallen the Palestinian people. And to step in and say enough is enough, we need to solve this problem fairly; both sides have to sit down.

We all understand there must always be a future for Israel. It is high time for the world to understand there will be a future for the Palestinian people, that they will have their own state, they will gain the ability to dictate their future and I hope the support of the American people to understand the problem as quickly as possible will be the greatest signal, plus I think we could deal with at this time.

CBS: And to those Americans who say: I'd like for my country to…who'd like to help but I feel it's a quagmire of Vietnam-like proportions? The Wall Street Journal recently had an editorial to this effect; to those Americans who say let's don't get involved let's pull back. You say what?

King Abdullah: We're not asking American people to come and sacrifice their lives. What we're saying to the Americans is to have the moral strength to be able to push the political agenda. If you sit back in America and say this is not my problem, then all you are doing is delaying any chance we may have in eradicating extremism or terrorism.

CBS: Your Majesty, thank you.

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