His Majesty King Abdullah II’s interview with The Washington Post
"In the End, 'Iraq Will Succeed'"
Amid democratic stirrings in the Middle East and continuing violence in Iraq, King Abdullah of Jordan spoke last week with The Washington Post-Newsweek's Lally Weymouth. Shortly before opening the World Economic Forum in Jordan, the king gave his assessment of the war in Iraq; his hopes for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; and his views on a prospective pardon for Iraqi Deputy Prime Minister Ahmed Chalabi (once convicted of bank fraud in Jordan). He also outlined his plans for reform, which last month led him to reshuffle his cabinet. After the interview, the young monarch headed toward a waiting helicopter. Taking off his suit jacket, he rolled up his shirt sleeves and jumped into the pilot's seat to fly to Amman.
Washington Post: Could you elaborate on rumours that you are going to pardon Ahmed Chalabi?
King Abdullah: All that's happened so far is that [Iraq's] President [Jalal] Talabani asked me to look into the Chalabi case to see if we can find a solution to the problem. Obviously, Ahmed Chalabi is a senior member of the Iraqi government, and we believe in a strong relationship with Iraq, so we should put our best efforts into solving this problem. The issue with Chalabi is an economic problem, not a political one. It is [about] money owed to people, not to the government.
Washington Post: Do you think these people will have to be reimbursed?
King Abdullah: At the end of the day, we will have to figure out how to compensate these people.
Washington Post: How do you see the situation in Iraq?
King Abdullah: I think at the end of the day Iraq will succeed and stand on its own two feet and be independent and completely capable. ... The Iraqis have matured over the past several months and they believe that they have to make Iraq for Iraqis. I think that the turning point was the elections on January 30. They were successful beyond my expectations if I can be that honest, and I was very pleased to see that 8 million people went to the polls under the threat of the insurgents and terrorist attacks. It meant Iraqis wanted to take the risk for their future, and I think it can only get better from now on.
I am excited that all the different sectors of Iraqi society are beginning to reach out to each other. The level of success will be determined in the elections in December [after a new constitution is written] and what we are looking to achieve is an outreach between Kurdish, Sunni and Shiite factions.
Washington Post: Do you think the insurgency is largely fuelled from outside or inside Iraq?
King Abdullah: I think there is an element of outside insurgents, but there are still those Baathists or members of the Saddam-era security forces that feel isolated from the process. We are working to try to reach out to the Sunni society in Iraq and to convince them that they are part and parcel of the future of Iraq. They need to be included and to start talking to the new Iraqi government. If they sit the elections out this time, it will be a disaster.
Washington Post: Do you think there will be a civil war in Iraq and the country will break up?
King Abdullah: I do not believe that Iraq will go into civil war or break up. I think the majority of Kurds, Shiites and Sunnis want to save their country. There will be instability, and the insurgency will continue to be a problem.
Washington Post: How do you feel about the Bush administration's push to spread democracy in the Middle East and your own moves toward reform? Is the American effort helpful?
King Abdullah: I think it is helpful. President Bush actually triggered reform in that it became a subject for debate, which it wasn't as of two years ago. If you look at the Palestinian and Iraqi elections in January, both of which I think were largely successful, I think that set the tone. Whenever you have successful elections and signs of democracy moving in the right way in the Middle East, it creates a positive energy that makes countries move faster. So what is happening around [us] is a good signal for Jordan that we need to continue the pace of reform if not accelerate it.
Washington Post: So the Palestinian elections encouraged reform in Jordan?
King Abdullah: To be quite honest, about a month ago I felt that the pace of reform in Jordan was not moving fast enough, so we went through some government changes to make sure we got back on track--to create the traction we need to be able to move the pace of reform at the level that we wanted. We created a national agenda which is a 10-year vision of what we need to do politically, economically and socially.
... In January, I started [a] committee for complete decentralization. We want to create a northern, central and southern region in Jordan. What this will do is create grass-roots support for the political system. We have tried pushing democratic reform from the top down and that is sluggish. By doing it this way, we are now moving from the bottom up.
Washington Post: Were you surprised by the speed at which the Syrians moved out of Lebanon?
King Abdullah: I think Lebanon should be for the Lebanese. I am glad the Syrians also believe that they need to give the Lebanese independence.
Washington Post: Does it show weakness on the part of the Syrian regime?
King Abdullah: I'd like to think it is a greater understanding by the Syrian leadership that the international community has certain standards and ways of doing things. The world has changed.
Washington Post: How do you see the Israeli-Palestinian situation?
King Abdullah: Cautiously optimistic, but I am also concerned that we do have a time issue. We are all concentrating on Palestinian security -- [but] what happens after the withdrawal from Gaza? Do we still have the roadmap? What we need is more clarity and maybe more directives from the US to articulate what happens the day after. We hope it is the roadmap but my concern is that we are running out of time on what we consider a viable independent Palestinian state. We look at viability being geographic. If settlements and the wall continue, we might be left on the ground geographically with really no longer a viable independent state. So what happens to the peace process then? Several years from now we may find out that there is no geographic continuity to Palestinian lands that will be able to translate into a Palestinian state.
Washington Post: When you visited President Bush in Washington, did you ask him about the future of the roadmap?
King Abdullah: I did, and he was very forthcoming on his support for the peace process. ... I do believe that the president does believe in a two-state solution and the roadmap, but on the ground there are some discrepancies. . . . When Prime Minister Sharon came to visit Bush after my visit, we need to know in transparent detail what [they were] talking about. We know the Israelis are dedicated to pulling out of Gaza, but we still are unclear on what happens after that and how effective the roadmap is and how much it will determine the process.
Washington Post: Do you think Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas (known as Abu Mazen) is doing everything he can to fight terrorism?
King Abdullah: To fight terrorism, I truly believe Abu Mazen is giving 110 per cent support. We need the US, the Israelis and the international community to help strengthen Abu Mazen's capability as the leader of Palestinians. It comes down to financial support. He needs to show the Palestinians that today is better than yesterday. The Israelis can help a lot by relieving the pressure on checkpoints, and there is money held by Israeli banks that could be given back to the [Palestinian] government. We need to improve the standard of living of Palestinians. That is the key to moderate Palestinians having stronger showing in the polls when it comes to elections.
Washington Post: Some Israelis say that he is not doing enough to disarm Hamas.
King Abdullah: Is it the will or the means? I believe he does have the will. We are trying to give him the means to disarm. [There are] gaps in [the Palestinian Authority's] security capabilities. We in Jordan are trying to assist in training Palestinian policemen and so are the Americans and the Egyptians.
Washington Post: Isn't the July legislative election a problem for Abu Mazen as polls show Hamas possibly winning 40 per cent?
King Abdullah: He has his concerns, I am sure, but Abu Mazen being the person I know him to be--he will try to move with elections on time. If there is a concern outside the territories about Hamas, then giving economic prosperity to the Palestinians is the quickest way to get the moderate majority to have a say in the process.
Washington Post: Al Qaeda has made attempts to strike here. Is the situation under control?
King Abdullah: Jordan is a safe and stable country. This is an ongoing battle. If we let our guard down, the Al Qaedas of the world would use Jordan as a base.
Washington Post: How do you believe we--the West and Jordan--are doing in the fight against terror?
King Abdullah: There is international coordination and cooperation in the war against terrorism. But battling terrorists is only part of it. The core recruiting platform for terrorists in the Muslim world is the Israeli-Palestinian issue. That is what extremists use as a rallying cry. So, one of the reasons that we want the Israeli-Palestinians issue to move quickly is that it shuts the recruiters down.
Washington Post: How do you believe you can win the hearts and minds of young people in your part of the world?
King Abdullah: Fifty per cent of the Middle East is under the age of 18 and so you have to use the platform of reform to reach out to them. This is why we came up with the Amman message: It is part of a long-term agenda to win moderate Islam back. . . . Basically, the Amman message says the taking of lives of innocent people, hatred, anger and suspicion against your fellow man have nothing to do with Islam. Winning the Muslim street back is not a five-, 10- or 15-year process. You have to reverse wrong education that has been used in the madrassas and other institutions that taught in the name of Islam you could kill your fellow man.
