Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

CBS: Everybody agrees that this is a critical moment in history not just the history of the Middle East, what is the most important thing you have to say to the American people at this juncture.

King Abdullah: Well, as you said this is a critical juncture on how we proceed in this region, and we still have now that we have seen the war over winning the peace in Iraq is going to be a critical issue to get it right from the start. And equally as important the core issue for the Middle East has always been the Israeli- Palestinian problem. So, on both levels we have to be able to move simultaneously, as quickly as possible to reassure the people of the area that things are changing for the better.

CBS: Let’s begin with first steps. First step of Iraq what's the most important thing in and of Iraq itself.

King Abdullah: Well, there's actually three elements in that at the moment. First of all I think that the coalition forces have agreed that Iraq is for the Iraqis, that there should be an international role. On the ground that's probably going to take a bit longer than most of us would like. The second element of that would be how the administrative reforms in Iraq happened from day one. General Garner is obviously going in as a team but it’s important that the Iraqis have a sense that the new leadership of Iraq is being given a chance to take a role as quickly as possible. There has to be an Iraqi face. Now there is obviously a role for the Iraqi opposition but I would believe that the majority of the Iraqis would feel more comfortable with people who had suffered with them. So they must look at community leaders, maybe people from the old government those that were part of the nation as opposed to part of the regime to give an Iraqi face to make the Iraqis feel that they have a say in how Iraq is going to move. The third part of it, I believe, is for Iraqis to look to the future they need to be able to come together with the support of the coalition obviously, and the international community to create a national charter, to be able to get the political steps moving. And if Iraqis can move on the national charter as quickly as possible that will allow them to be positioned to bring in an Iraqi constitution, and that will I think open the steps for the future and bring commence to the Iraqis that Iraq will be their country at the end of the day. And I think will reassure the area that Iraq is going to be an independent, capable country as quickly as possible.

CBS: Your Majesty, you were saying that there are three things to have in mind as we go forward inside Iraq, and they are?

King Abdullah: Well I believe that initially, for Iraqis and for the rest of the world as the coalition forces have said, Iraq is for the Iraqis, and we want, I think that the whole world wants, the Iraqis to be able to take command of their future as quickly as possible. And I know there have been discussions between the coalition and the United Nations to see how the United Nations can enter and maybe open up to the international community. On the ground that might take a bit while longer than we hoped, but obviously moving in that direction would reassure a lot of people. The second element is obviously now that we have General Garner going in with his team, you need to give an Iraqi face to the future of Iraq as quickly as possible and we have to identify Iraqi leaders to be able to not only bring some sort of stability to Iraq internally, but at the same time reassure that the political process is moving in the right direction. Therefore, I think that the Iraqi opposition, although it does have some role, will probably not have a major role. I think Iraqis will feel more comfortable with fellow citizens who have suffered as they did. So I would imagine that we need to be looking at very strong community leaders, maybe generals or ministers of the government that were not necessarily part of the regime but those that served the country. The third element on the political side is that Iraqis need to be able to develop as quickly as possible a national charter. By being able to do that, that then develops into an atmosphere where Iraq can then develop a constitution, which would allow them to be able to form a government. I‘m worried that maybe a constitution might be imported. It has to be something that needs to be developed, therefore, the national charter is probably the right way to go. And I hope that the constitution will allow a future political government for Iraq.

CBS: You mentioned that one believes that there is a place for what you call the opposition members, these are people who left Iraq to oppose the Saddam Hussein regime from the outside. I'm not sure I understand, you think that there is a place for them but you think perhaps not the dominant or a ruling place?

King Abdullah: Well again, you know, I think they can be borne into capacity to council and advise. But if I was an Iraqi who had suffered over the past 20-30 years, I would feel much more affinity to someone who was with me during the difficult times than somebody who was outside. And although the opposition can play a role, I think it's a minor one and that the future should be with leading figures that were in Iraq during the crisis.

CBS: Let me take one name: Mohammed. Is he or is he not someone that you believe can be the ultimate leader of Iraq.

King Abdullah: Again I think, as I just said, the opposition should play a much minor role. And I think that most Iraqis would be suspicious of someone who's spent, I don't know this gentleman, 20-30 years outside the country. They need to identify with people that are part of the Iraq that they know, as opposed to somebody from outside.

CBS: Your Majesty, in your opinion at this point, what are the dangers that Iraq will develop not into a democracy but a theocracy, something along the lines of Iran?

King Abdullah: I think that the concern and the fear has been in the hearts and minds of Arabs and Iraqis alike. For the past couple of years when we saw the potential of the war happening with Iraq was the break-up of Iraqi society the Kurds in the north, Sunnis in the middle and Shiites in the south. And this is something I think everyone agrees we have to work together to make sure that doesn't happen. And if we get a break-up in the south it could have some negative spin-offs and I think everybody understands the red lines there.

CBS: Everybody understands the red lines but is it or is it not practical to believe that Iraq can be held together, that the Shiites, the Shiite south primarily doesn't break away, and the Kurds don't break away.

King Abdullah: It has to. And I believe if it doesn't we are going to have the problems that the break-up of Iraq will not only create on the Iraqi people itself, but will escalate across the borders into the region and further afield. And if we don't keep the integrity of Iraq we could have some major serious problems around all the Middle East.

CBS: Your Majesty, do you or do you not favour bringing in the United Nations quickly to administer the government in Iraq or help Iraq?

King Abdullah: Well, having heard President Bush and Prime Minister Tony Blair I think they agreed that there should be a role for the United Nations and the international community as quickly as possible. But to be realistic on the ground, I think that's going to take some time unfortunately. There still needs to be some order that needs to be distilled there needs to be first steps of Iraqis taking command of their own future. And I believe the United Nations will also need some time to decide how to be able to go in.

CBS: Your Majesty, I want to ask you a question in two parts-- that is the new freedom of Iraq, what does it engender in your country, in terms of stresses and strengths? Then, I'm going to ask you about the Arab world as a whole.

King Abdullah: You have to remember that Iraq had experienced democracy before the Baath Party came in. It did have a parliament. It did have elections. So it's not a new thing for Iraqis I mean the older generation will remember that. And so I think that the movement to freedom for Iraqis to have a more of a personal say in their future is something good for the area. And if we want the region to be part of the international community we all have to move in that direction. And so again, the importance of what is happening in Iraq is relevant to all of us. If Iraqis are successful then it allows the rest of us to be able to move in to that direction much easier.

CBS: And if Iraq turns out not be a successful model?

King Abdullah: Then it will be used as an excuse by many people in this part of the world not to look to the future, not to look forward, and that's the danger, and it will affect all of us.

CBS: Lets’ talk about the Arab world as a whole, keeping in mind that each country is unique -- there is a danger of over-generalising. At this moment what are the fears of Arabs in general?

King Abdullah: Well, even if you were to ask, there was an international economic gathering several months ago where a question was posed to a Western audience, and the same question was posed to an Arab audience. What is the single most important thing in the Middle East, if you had a say?. The Western response was democracy and freedom, the Arab response was a future for Palestine. And I think that the West needs to understand that the core issue still is the Israeli-Palestinian one. And unless we solve that problem, I think that very few people will have the confidence to be able to push out and develop their countries in the way that they would like.

CBS: Well let's pursue that right now. What step would you have taken -- would you have the leadership to take -- right now in the wake of the battlefield victory in Iraq? What's the most important thing that can be done now to move forward some kind of process?

King Abdullah: Well there's two elements to that. First obviously, the international community that is waiting for the PNA to form a new government under the premiership of Abu Mazen, and launching the roadmap -- and the quicker we can move on that the more you reassure people in the Middle East that there's going to be a balanced attitude. The average Arab looks at the situation as follows: the Americans, for whatever reasons, came to liberate the Iraqi people. There are people that are very sceptical that that is the intention, unfortunately. Well, if you've liberated the Iraqi people, show us how fair you're going to be. Liberate the Palestinians. So everybody is watching to see is there going to be fairness and transparency throughout the region, and going back to the core issue is that of the Israeli-Palestinians.

CBS: So a first step would be?

King Abdullah: A first step would be to launch the roadmap. To support the Palestinians in creating a new government, and getting people to the peace table as quickly as possible. May I also add, I think that we have to understand that there are two elements that have been articulated in the Middle East. I think the majority of Israelis don't look at the future of themselves or their children, just at the extent of the peace that they have with Jordan to the borders of Syria or to the borders of Egypt. I think that the Israelis, if they want a future for themselves and their children, look to be integrated as far as Oman on the Indian Ocean to Morocco on the Atlantic. And I think from the Arab point of view, first stated by Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and then signed at the Arab summit in Beirut last year. The Arabs agreed to give everything the Israelis have ever wanted from the Arab side including Iraq's signed on and never retracted their statement. So we will give Israel this future its security, protection but at the same time the Arabs want a future for the Palestinians and a Palestinian viable independent state. And its as simple as that I know that devil is in the details. The Israelis will have their security guaranteed by the Arabs but there must be a Palestinian state for the Palestinians.

CBS: Realistically, can this be accomplished without a United Nations including United States military presence along whatever line is drawn for this Palestinian state?

King Abdullah: Well I think we have to get the political principles sorted out first before we can look at what we need to do on the ground. I think the president of the United States for the first time in American history has articulated a viable Palestinian state within three years. We kept on saying that in the old days there was a tunnel but there was not a light at the end of the tunnel. We now have the light at the end of the tunnel but we have to move through. And I think by declaring or launching the roadmap, having a new Palestinian state or government in place. We can get the table that will then identify what needs to be done on the ground on the security aspects, and the problem is that some of our friends have used security as the major argument. Well you're never going to have security unless you solve the political questions first. I think that if we identify and all agree in the Middle East that there will be security for Israel, there will be a Palestinian state. I think with the international community we can look at the security aspects on the ground. If Palestinians feel that there is a future and the Israelis feel that there is a positive future for both sides then I think the security problems become less. Don't forget that the extremists in the world or in the region like to use the Israeli-Palestinian issue as a rally call. If we solve that than extremists and terrorists will have less of a voice, and this is the hope that all of us have by solving this problem. My country will never be able to develop in the way we want it to if we have the stigma of the Israeli-Palestinian crisis hanging over our shoulders.

CBS: In any roadmap that you can see that stands a chance of being successful, can any of the settlements in the West Bank, Israeli settlements remain, stay?

King Abdullah: Well I think the most important question is that we can't continue building settlements. Settlements are I think an obstacle for the peace process and the continuing of the expansion of the settlement programmes is very detrimental to the atmosphere that we are hoping for between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

CBS: So you would see that as the first order of business, no settlements?

King Abdullah: Well no. New settlements, I think, would be a good sign of confidence that there is seriousness in being fair in addressing the issue. And not necessarily because it complicates the more you build settlements the more difficult it is then to discuss the boundaries of a future between the Israelis and the Palestinians.

CBS: I understand. You're talking about future settlements, what about the settlements that exist?

King Abdullah: I think that in the roadmap and the discussions as part of the international community. The boundaries between the Israelis and Palestinians are something that needs to be addressed. And some of the settlements are going to have to be discussed as either being part of Israel or the future of the Palestinians. There are some serious problems on the ground because certain areas where the settlements are located at the moment do impede the difficulties of trying to solve the problem.

CBS: Majesty, you met with President Bush in August of last year. There's a story that I'd like to have you confirm or tell me it isn't true. That you walked into that meeting and basically said, “Is there any way that we could prevent this war?” And the President said, “No, it's going to happen, lets talk about what you can do to help us.” Is that pretty much true?

King Abdullah: I came into the meeting to see if there's anything we can do to avert this war. The President said I have not decided if there's going to be a war with Iraq and when I make, if I make the decision, I will let the international community know. But he obviously was very clear about his position and his feelings towards the regime. And I basically said that our job as Jordan as part of the international community in particular is to find any avenue we can for a diplomatic solution. And he did say, he said we have to give the United Nations a chance. We have to give the international community a role to try and find out a way to solve this problem but he was very sceptical from his point of view whether the Iraqi regime would comply.

CBS: Let’s talk about Syria, its obvious that the United States government with the British they are increasing the pressure on Syria quite a bit. There is even talk of a possible invasion of Syria. Can you put that in context?

King Abdullah: I would be very surprised if there would be cause for military confrontation between the coalition forces and the Syrian government. The Syrians do have some issues with the international community that they have to answer, but I don't think that we are anywhere near the point with opening up conflict with Syria and the coalition.

CBS: When you say issues in the international community, what are those is that they are listed by the United States government as a terrorist state?

King Abdullah: Well these are issues and also the possibility of weapons of mass destruction. This is something the Syrian government is going to have to solve with the United States or the international community, but I would be very, very surprised if we are in an atmosphere now of potential armed clash between Syria and…

CBS: Is it your judgment or not that some members of the Baath Party high-ranking members of Saddam Hussein's regime are hiding in Syria?

King Abdullah: Well, there were reports that Saddam's wife and Qusay's wife and Barazani's wife were in Syria just before the war started, or a bit before that but senior ranking officials. There's a lot of rumours that there was a lot of movement across the borders but I haven't seen anything to confirm. There is speculation but I haven't seen anything across my desert to that says there are any members of the top 50 in Syria at the moment.

CBS: Do you think Saddam Hussein is still alive?

King Abdullah: That's the million dollar question. I mean, I heard a rumour, as we just saw the breaking news. I heard this about four or five days ago that he was seen last Friday in Baghdad, but if that's the case I don't know. Nobody knows. A lot of people have been asking the question. I think it will take the coalition forces with the Iraqis themselves to find out what happened to him and a lot of other people.

CBS: Does it matter whether he's alive or dead? Does it matter whether we know what's happened to him?

King Abdullah: It'll matter for all of us to know what has happened to him and his clique. But what impact it's going to have on the future of Iraq I think is going to be irrelevant. He's out of power if he is still alive. There's nothing he can do. It's not something similar to Osama Bin Laden. That was more of a loose organisation that could still use its influence in some terrorist organisation across the world to create problems but the Iraqi regime is now dead. And whoever has survived the regime is not going to be able to make any impact.

CBS: You have military background and military training, Your Majesty, what are the chances that they will revive an Iraqi protracted classic guerrilla campaign against the American and allied forces there?

King Abdullah: Well it all comes back to your previous question, if you get it right if you give the Iraqis a sense that they have an ability to decide their future and their fate and then that's not going to happen. But if we come in heavy-handedly as part of the international community and sort of run Iraq for the Iraqis. Then I think if that happened to any country you're going to have a reaction. And so what is so critical and fortunately I think well with the United States in particular, you have only one chance to get the PR game right. And if you don't get it right and don't send the right message to the Iraqis and to the Middle East then you have other problems and we have one chance unfortunately.

CBS: The most important piece of that perhaps the most important peace of that is the size of humanitarian aid and the speed with which it can be applied. What is Iraq's greatest need now, not to mention security and a government as a need, on the humanitarian side, what's the single biggest need?

King Abdullah: There's a tremendous crisis at the moment, and we're all waiting in the wings to be able to provide in priority medical support, and secondly nutrition and water. NGO's are based in Jordan, Kuwait and other countries. We've had a reconnaissance team to go across with a field hospital to assist the tremendous medical problems that Iraq is facing. And fortunately, on the ground, there are still pockets that are what they call danger areas for recipients to cross and so the coalition forces are trying to facilitate some sort of rules with the NGO's to be able to operate in Iraq.

CBS: Is yours being not a government …

King Abdullah: Non-government organisations need to be able to provide the medical support that needs to be done and that might take some time. And the sadness is that the Iraqis need the help today, a week from now is going to be too late and so you know we have problems with insulin, those that have diabetes, what's going to happen to those people that have kidney problems? Can they afford to wait a week until the medical supplies arrive? Drinking water is going to be a potential epidemic of cholera and so everyday we waste, it could affect the loss of hundreds if not thousands of lives.

CBS: Your Majesty, as you know I've just come back from Baghdad, and for most people there is no running water, there is no electricity, there's nothing approaching 911 emergency services, healthcare services are practically nonexistent, the garbage is not being picked up. How much longer can the Iraqi people be expected to understand this.

King Abdullah: Well part of it is being solved by getting Iraqis, there are Iraqi community leaders that are now asking Iraqis to come back and work to take back the responsibilities. Whether it is in hospitals, or the police or engineers to fix power plants or water works so, Iraqis are trying to take some responsibility but at the same time as we alluded to earlier the amount of humanitarian aid needs to be accelerated so we can reach the Iraqis as quickly as possible. And if this continues over the next couple of weeks to the next month or so then the problems of civil disobedience and complete break-up of society is a major issue that we have to be concerned about.

CBS: With the result being if that should happen?

King Abdullah: Well then anarchy. Everybody looking for themselves. And looking after their own interests because they don't see the help of the international community or the umbrella of a new Iraq. Something could happen in the south or the centre. Time is against us.

CBS: Your Majesty, a number of people, including some, if not many Americans, worried and still worry that by moving militarily into Iraq as the United States and some allies did, that a whole new generation of Osama Bin Laden's would be created. Can you address that possibility?

King Abdullah: It depends how you get it from the beginning, if you can show the Iraqis that you are there for them and that you are there to assist them to get their country back together again. So that they have a role to play in their future and at the same time you show the same transparency and balance on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, which will convince the Arabs that there is a fair and balanced attitude to the Middle East, that's not going to be a problem. But if Iraq continues to disintegrate say, God forsake, or put pressure on the Israeli-Palestinian issue, the sceptics in the Arab world will say see the Americans were there for the oil they don't care about the Middle East. They're going to support the Israelis, they don't care about the Palestinians. And so in this critical month and the next, those two issues need to be addressed to convince the Iraqis and really to reassure the rest of the Middle East and the world in general.

CBS: How widespread is the belief that the United States is in this primarily for the oil?

King Abdullah: I think the average citizen feels that, and that is going to be … I know people came into this with the right intentions but the average man on the street is very sceptical, and this is why it’s so important to move Iraq in the right direction. But also to address an issue, which is closer to the Arab heart, which is that of Israel and Palestine.

CBS: Your Majesty is there realistically any way that we can prevent a clash of civilisations, a war of civilisations, between Islam and the West?

King Abdullah: Well we have all been working to that end since the start of the eleventh of September, but again we are now into a major obstacle in the road. And as I said, getting Iraq moving in the right direction and most importantly to Arabs and Muslims showing transparency on the Arab-Israeli issue. If you can show that the West actually cares about the region then you're going to take the wind out of a lot of people's sails. Again I think the Americans have got to understand that. How many presidents has the Middle East crisis drawn? I think eight presidents whether they liked it or not had been dragged in the Middle East conflict. And American governments will continue to be dragged into this conflict unless we solve the Israeli-Palestinian issue. And although Americans may get very tired and fed up of the Middle East and say look it's not my problem. I think that the eleventh of September showed that a problem in one region affects us all. So we're all paying the price. I have as much to lose as you do in the United States if you don't solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem. I'm going to pay the price so are my people, so will you. You will continue to be dragged in. You've been covering the region for how many years, and you will continue to be back here asking these questions unless we solve it once and for all.

CBS: What was the perception before the military operation in Iraq? In your country Jordan, and in Egypt to mention two that there was an explosion rumbling from before the US and allied operation in Iraq, was that true?

King Abdullah: No I think that people were extremely frustrated and angry at the potential of a military conflict and I must admit I was one of them. I think the majority of the international community tried everything that they possibly could to find a diplomatic solution to this problem. And it was very depressing and frustrating. I can say personally as we came closer and closer to this collision, as we could see it that there was little we could do to find a way out. And there was in the past six or seven months ago a sense of tremendous despair I think in the Middle East.

CBS: I have very fond memories of speaking to your father.

King Abdullah: Well you said that last time when we met in 1990 and again I think there was a lot of difference in the circumstances. His Majesty…I think what made it more difficult is that he did go in and he did take the guarantee from Saddam to leave Kuwait, but people were not interested. Being the man that he was, all of a sudden there was this attitude, if you're not with us you're against us. He was like, “I'm with everybody and we can solve this problem without conflict.” Because he could see the fragmentation of the Middle East beyond that …

CBS: Your Majesty, we speak as the battlefield victory is over, but now phase two, what are the stakes?

King Abdullah: Well, Sir, from the American point of view that you've just won the war. I think the most important thing now and the more difficult issue is winning the peace.

CBS: Thank you I appreciate you doing this.