Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II
ABC: Your Majesty, thank you for having us back here.
King Abdullah: Nice to see you again, George.
ABC: Three weeks ago, you were at Aqaba with President Bush, Prime Minister Sharon, Prime Minister Abbas, and you seemed so hopeful. But since then, we've seen more violence, more Hamas attacks, more assassinations by Israel. It's hard to see that anything's changed.
King Abdullah: No, I don't think things have changed. I mean, I'm still very optimistic. And I think I alluded to in Aqaba that we had to expect the extremism to do this. And as we get closer to implementing the roadmap, as we get closer to solving the problems between the Israelis and the Palestinians, so will the extremists try to raise the body count on both sides. I think that's unfortunately part and parcel of the peace process. And what we have to make sure of is that we're not deterred by those that espouse hatred and suspicion and destruction.
ABC: You cite the extremists. Last night, there was another assassination of a Hamas leader by Israel. Does that make you question Prime Minister Sharon's commitment to peace?
King Abdullah: Well, whenever we see the rise of violence on either side, it just -- it complicates the issue. And I think that the views of the Quartet is that both sides have to make an effort on the leadership level to make sure that they rein in those that are playing a role in either assassinations or suicide bombings or whatever form of terrorism, because it doesn't help. And I think the president was somewhat outspoken on the views of both sides, the Israelis and Palestinians, that they should be more responsible in being able to stop that.
ABC: How about Hamas? On Friday, in Jerusalem, Secretary Powell singled them out as the enemies of peace. When you took over from your father three years ago, you expelled Hamas from Jordan. Do you think Prime Minister Abbas now has to take them on, maybe even declare war on Hamas?
King Abdullah: Well, again, you have to understand that at the start of the Aqaba summit, Prime Minister Abbas has very limited security capability, and so we have to make sure that not undue pressure is put on him. In other words, he's trying to do the best that he can. Well, we all know, all the regional players know, and the Quartet, that this is still a government that's trying to build its infrastructures and its capabilities. And so I'm not saying let him off the hook, but we need to give them even more support and capability of being able to take on terrorist organisations.
ABC: What does that mean? What can Jordan do, for example, to help Prime Minister Abbas take on and maybe even take out Hamas?
King Abdullah: Well, what Jordan has been doing for many years is working with the Israelis and the Palestinians in trying to solve the security issues, and that's still on-going. And we're still working very hard with that. As are the United States and other countries.
But I believe that the Israelis are the ones that can help Prime Minister Abbas even better, because part of the problem is the social dimension. By allowing more Palestinians to get back to work, to lowering the poverty rate, to increasing jobs, to also allowing a lot of the finances that the Israeli government has to Prime Minister Abbas so that he can actually help the society on the street.
At the moment, the people have nothing to hope for. So Hamas has a good rallying cry. If you strengthen the government and give Abbas the ability to solve some of these social and economic problems, then people will look to him and say “Well, that's the future that we want.” At the moment, there's no hope.
ABC: Do you think Hamas is an enemy of peace?
King Abdullah: Well, I think that on both sides there are views that -- of extremists that don't want to see peace and stability. And I see that that is an unfortunate point of view because all we will have is death and destruction from now until the end of time. Israel will stay and so will the Palestinians. There is no greater Israel, there is no greater Palestine. Once the extremists figure that out on both sides, I think that then we can move forward.
ABC: Right now, Prime Minister Abbas is trying also to negotiate a ceasefire with Hamas. Do you think if he reaches that ceasefire, it's something that can be trusted? Or will he eventually have to eliminate them?
King Abdullah: It's difficult to say. I think that Prime Minister Abbas is very dedicated. What you see is what you get. I think he's been very courageous in what he's trying to do for the Palestinian people. If he feels, at the end of the day, and comes to the powers that be and says “I have a deal with Hamas and I'm confident on it,” then I think we have to give him the benefit of the doubt.
ABC: And you'd support that?
King Abdullah: I'd support anything that Prime Minister Abbas achieves. He gets 110 per cent support from me.
ABC: Let me turn to Iraq. Before the war, you warned of devastating consequences of a US invasion. Do you think you were too pessimistic?
King Abdullah: Well, I think we were all concerned that the military option was one that was being thrown around too easily and we were adamant that dialogue should have been given its full extent. Well, the war has happened at what we say minimal cost. There was obviously a tremendous cost by the Iraqi people and to an extent, the coalition.
The potential devastation is still there. There are problems on the ground. There are difficulties in the south, the Shia. There is still the tremendous potential of the fragmentation of Iraq.
Now, I'm fully confident that Ambassador Bremer, who I met yesterday, has the right attitude on how to solve the problems and as quickly as possible allow the Iraqis a role in deciding their future. But it's going to be, I think, a long road, still.
ABC: Ambassador Bremer yesterday also said that a lot of the resistance that we've been seeing in Iraq is organised and maybe even includes outside forces. What do you think is going on with the resistance in Iraq?
King Abdullah: Well, I think there is internal resistance because people are suspicious, frustrated, and don't know what the future is. As, I think, Ambassador Bremer -- as the dust settles down, and as he manages to get Iraqis to have a stronger voice in their future, then I think the suspicion and frustration of the Iraqis inside will diminish and the internal problems will lessen. But yes, there is involvement from outside sources that is not healthy to the problem.
ABC: Do you think it's organised in the end by Saddam Hussein still?
King Abdullah: Internal resistance, if it is, it's very limited, I would imagine. But again, there are those that feel that they have nothing to lose because, again, it's, I think, attitudes. A lot of those that were considered to be part of the regime, in other words, the Sunni part of Iraq feels that they may be targeted, and so they're very hesitant and very suspicious. And I believe as Ambassador Bremer starts to create a government or interim government and the Iraqis see that they actually have a future and a role to play, I think the internal problem will become less. But we do have to be concerned about the external forces.
ABC: US forces this week captured Saddam Hussein's bodyguard who seemed to indicate, and you don't know whether you can trust what he's been saying to the forces, that Saddam is still alive. Do you believe that?
King Abdullah: Well, I think from day one, until there was critical proof that he was dead, I think we all have to assume that he is. And out of the top three, i.e, Saddam and his two sons, I think that the attitude is by the international community, at least two of the three are alive. Which ones, nobody knows.
ABC: There was also a report this morning, actually in Britain's “Guardian” newspaper that US forces launched a missile strike against a convoy in western Iraq on Wednesday and they believe that there was a chance that Saddam was there. In fact, they're now doing DNA tests, according to this report. Have you seen any intelligence like that?
King Abdullah: We had heard, again, but you're getting so many stories right, left and centre. We had heard that he was moving around the northwestern area in the tribes using sort of taxis and pick-up trucks. But I've heard so many stories in the past several months that I --
ABC: As late as this week?
King Abdullah: I heard a report of him being in the same area several days ago. But, again, it's like Elvis, there are a lot of sightings all over the place.
ABC: So what do you think needs to be done now by the United States? For example, how important is it for the United States to show the world, to show the Arab world, to show the Iraqis that Saddam Hussein is either killed or captured?
King Abdullah: I think that for everybody there needs to be some closure. And again, I wouldn't underestimate the fear that Saddam still shadows his people with. I mean, there are a lot of Iraqis out there that think that he might still be alive and might come back to haunt them. And so I think the closure of finding out what happened to Saddam one way or another, I think, is an important element for people to realise that, you know, I think there are Iraqis out there that feel that maybe America might not be able to stay the course and might withdraw and if Saddam is still alive, he'll be back to, you know, get a pay-back. And so, closure, I think, is very important for everybody.
ABC: How about on the issue of weapons of mass destruction? As you know, there's a great controversy in the United States and Britain over the failure to find any weapons yet. Does that failure fuel more suspicion in the Arab world about the United States' motives?
King Abdullah: It doesn't help. But again, Iraq is a very big country. And I had to believe going into the war there was enough information to know that there were things that were happening outside of the norm when it came to weapons of mass destruction.
ABC: So you believe he had weapons?
King Abdullah: I believe that there were programmes and to what extent they were successful, I don't know. And I think that we should have a little bit more patience. Iraq is a very big country and these things are quite easy to hide. So let's give it a bit more time before we jump to conclusions, I think.
ABC: But what would you say to one of your citizens who said, “Listen, they haven't found anything, Saddam Hussein didn't have anything, and this just proves the United States wanted to go in there to control the oil, wanted to be an occupying force?
King Abdullah: Well, I mean, those sorts of arguments we could spend sort of night and day on them. I think what we have to do is -- I know it's important for a lot of people to maybe hold people accountable for the views they had before the war. But I think the priority is now that Saddam has been removed and we've all seen how repressive that regime was on the Iraqis and how relieved the Iraqis [are] that he is no longer in that role, I think the effort should be done not looking at the past, but looking at the future and trying to help the Iraqis get back on their feet as quickly as possible.
ABC: Looking at the future, do you think Ambassador Bremer and the United States have to move more quickly now to put Iraqis in control of their government?
King Abdullah: I mean, we all want it done yesterday, as opposed to today. I think, though, it's a tremendous task that is underestimated by a lot of people. And he has some tremendous challenges. Trying to get a country that really for the past 30 years has got very little infrastructure or a way of how the rest of the world is dealing -- I mean, they have a long way to go to be part of the international community. And so, there's going to be a lot of challenges, it's going to take some time, unfortunately.
ABC: And there are still a lot of challenges for the United States in the Arab world. All the polls we've seen show great distrust of the United States, even after the war. Looking now over the whole experience of the last year, do you think, on balance, that the war and its aftermath have been better for the perception of the United States in the Arab world or worse?
King Abdullah: Well, again, as you alluded to, I think there is still tremendous suspicion of why America got into the war with Iraq. And they don't trust the United States' position on why they deposed Saddam. But -- and so the suspicions and the frustrations are still there. We will only be able to change that if we see Iraq as quickly as possible regain itself into the international community. But more important, the commitment of the United States to solve the Israeli- Palestinian problem, because that's always a core issue.
And I think that perception will have changed, although people will be very sceptical. The President of the United States coming to Sharm El Sheikh and coming to Aqaba for the summit, I think, shows the commitment of the United States to be balanced. Okay, they dealt with Iraq for whatever reasons and we can argue about that until the end of time, as I said, but to show that the president is extremely serious on solving the Israeli-Palestinian issue, and if we do get a movement on the peace process, I think the majority of the Arab world will say, well, yes, this president is balanced. He has said to me, “I had my views on Iraq and I stuck to them, and I have my views on the future of Palestine and I'm going to stick to them.”
ABC: And you have no doubt that commitment is still there?
King Abdullah: I am personally 100 per cent sure that the president, when he says something, he'll do it. And he is committed to a viable Palestinian independent state, hopefully by 2005. And I don't doubt his sincerity and his desire to see this seen through towards the end. And so I think the Israelis and the Palestinians, if they haven't figured it out, are going to realise that this president is going to exert every single pressure that he has to make sure that that vision is going to be accomplished.
ABC: Your Majesty, thank you very much.
King Abdullah: Thank you.
