Interview with His Majesty King Abdullah II

CNN: And good evening again everyone. We are in Washington tonight where, late this afternoon, we talked with King Abdullah II of Jordan. When we met the young king, and he is young, he's just 40, he had just returned from a meeting with Secretary of State Powell. The King will meet with the president on Wednesday, all in an ongoing effort to find a way out of the mess that is the Middle East. Much of the programme tonight is devoted to the interview. We didn't start the day thinking that way. We thought we'd do a segment but when the interview was over, we knew we had to throw out a lot of other ideas. There was just too much there, so that's what we're going to do. And while we are really loathe to hype anything on the programme, we really are - I will tell you it is worth staying through to the end.

He is good on policy, really interesting on Yasser Arafat, and downright touching when we talked about his father, the late King Hussein. What he was not was especially regal, at least in the way I imagined. As we were setting the lights, we talked of kids, his and mine. We talked about the United States. He lived in New England when he was a boy, sent to boarding school. We gently debated the East Coast versus the Midwest and the West.

But he is a king, not the one many in Jordan expected. His father was surprising that way, and he is a head of state, and now he is a player in one of the most complex problems the world faces. He doesn't speak with that all-knowing certainty you come to expect from a head of state but more like a man who is thinking through complicated questions that are too often reduced to slogans instead of solutions. And yes, I came away liking him and I suspect you will too. It is most of the back end of the programme tonight, and he is not the only head of state in the country this evening dealing with the Middle East.

Here's the way King Abdullah of Jordan summed it up: “ The tragic problem of Palestine will never be solved without American understanding, American sympathy, and American support.” In this case, I don't mean the current King Abdullah. I mean his great-grandfather Abdullah I, who wrote those words about American support in 1948.

Fifty-four years later, four kings of Jordan later, four wars later, 11 prime ministers of Israel later, the terms of discussion seem not to have changed very much. The tragic problem of Palestine, as Abdullah I called it, remains a kind of booby-trap Rubik's cube, frustrating at best, fatal at worst, and the fourth king of Jordan since 1948 finds himself still with a role to play. Here is a first taste of a longer conversation we had in Washington today.

King Abdullah: What the Israelis want to know is whether or not they are accepted in the neighbourhood, whether they'll be able to live in peace and security. That has been addressed by the Arabs. What needs to be addressed by the international community and Israel now is that there's going to be a future viable state for the Palestinians. Now if you put those on the front, that those are the goals that we want to achieve very quickly, obviously concurrently you're going to have to go through some process on the security issues as well as the economic.

CNN: Does that mean that you would like to see specific, a map laid out that says here are the borders, and these are the borders and these settlements are no longer here or this is there, and right of return is dealt with in this way? Do you want something that is that specific?

King Abdullah: Well, no I think what we want to go beyond that. We want to say that we all agree that as the Arabs have articulated in Beirut, that there will be peace for the Israelis with their Arab neighbours and the Arab region as a whole, that there will be a viable Palestinian state within an acceptable time frame. The problem that we've had with all of these discussions is they're left somewhat open-ended. So is there going to be a Palestinian state? Well if it's going to take the next ten, 15 years to talk about it, then we're never going to be able to move forward. So what you want to do is address the public to say a Palestinian state in a reasonable amount of time that we can all agree on, Israeli acceptance by the Arab countries in a reasonable amount of time. If we can agree on the principles, then I think you can work yourself backwards, talk about borders, talk about problems of refugees, et cetera, et cetera.

CNN: Do you agree with the president that the Arab states have not done enough?

King Abdullah: Well, I think the Arabs have done as much as they can, given the parameters that they've had to work with. I think this is why we're saying you have to throw the prizes out there. I think that when you offer the Arabs and the Palestinians a future for the Palestinians, which is obviously a tremendous concern, then there's a lot more that they can do on the political, economic, social level. And at the same time, it gives us moderate countries the ammunition that we need to be able to fight terrorism even more, because at that point when peace and a future Palestinian state is within the grasp of Palestinians and Arabs, it allows us the ability to talk to our peoples, that we have to fight terrorism, because they are going to be the ones who are going to sidetrack the issue.

CNN: Your Majesty, you have just come from meeting with the secretary of state. So why don't we start there. Can you talk substantively about what that meeting was about?

King Abdullah: Well, again, I think that the main discussion is going to be with the president on Wednesday, but what we talked about is how to visualise a series of steps that make sense in bringing the Israelis and Palestinians closer together. But at the same time, building on the Saudi initiative, i.e. the Arab olive branch to the Israelis to be part of the neighbourhood. And so, how do we develop the two tracks simultaneously in a way that makes sense to everyone?

CNN: When the Saudis were here, almost two weeks ago now, much was made of the blunt message that the Saudi government and the crown prince was going to deliver to the president. They certainly put that word out. Do you envision a blunt message to the president, a clear message to the president? And what will that message be?

King Abdullah: Well, we've always been, luckily, with all administrations going back as late as His Majesty King Hussein, we've always had an honest and straightforward discussion. So we've always been blunt and straightforward. I think there's been confidence in relationship. When we're going to be blunt, if we can put it that way, is to say that, you know, there is a slight easing of tension in the Middle East, but that should not be interpreted that things are OK. There's still a lot of anger, frustration, desperation in the Arab street. The presence of Colin Powell in the area took the edge off, because people feel that there's hope. But if there's no hope in the next couple weeks of finding a vision for the future of the Palestinians, then the rage will be back to an all time high.

CNN: A couple of weeks isn't a very long time. What, realistically, in a couple of weeks can any of the players do to affect that need for hope?

King Abdullah: What we're saying is, in the next couple weeks, we should articulate a vision so that there is, as Secretary of state has said, that the president has endorsed Resolutions] 244, 338, UN Resolution Council 1397, and the Arab proposal as a sort of an umbrella, to be able to use that as a stepping stone really to get on one side, the Israelis and Palestinians moving forward. On the other side, Arabs and Israelis...

So I think it's articulating that there is the end game. In other words, a Palestinian viable state in 244 and 338 and peace for the Israelis with the Arabs. I mean, that needs to be put on the front burner. And that's what needs to be articulated over there.

CNN: In all of the conversations we've had in the last two months with Israelis, certainly, they have said that Oslo, the spirit of Oslo is dead. That whatever has gone on in the last several months now, or the last 19 months, has within Israeli society pretty much killed off the spirit of Oslo. Is it your view, that Oslo is dead?

King Abdullah: I don't think that you can say any of these initiatives are dead. Because if it means dead, we're back to the starting line, which I think would be catastrophic for the Middle East. I think that the problem that Oslo has presented to Israelis and Arabs alike is that we have seen over the past nine years, an incremental step by step approach to the peace process, which has not met the expectations of people living in the neighbourhood. And therefore, what I think we're saying now is we need to go straight to the final prizes, as I just alluded to, a future viable Palestinian state for the Palestinians and Israeli security. I am concerned that if we're going to take a step by step Oslo approach to things, although Oslo had its merit, because it got us very far, but if we're going to continue this confidence building, slow procedure, then we're never going to get anywhere.

CNN: So this whole notion of first let's get through the Tenet plan and get security in place, let's start incrementally building confidence or rebuilding confidence again, if I understand what you're saying, I hear you saying that's not nearly going to get it done?

King Abdullah: Well, in a way, I mean, to make it simple: I think we need more peace, as opposed to process. In other words, you need to identify to the peoples. And this is, I mean, although there will be a tactical need to go in a way through George Tenet and George Mitchell, what you need to be able to address to people, what is really translatable in their terms. They don't know what 242, 338, George Tenet, George Mitchell means. What the Israelis want to know is whether or not they're accepted in the neighbourhood, whether they'll be able to live in peace and security. That has being addressed by the Arabs. What needs to be addressed by the international community in Israel now is that there's going to be a future viable state for the Palestinians. Now if you put those on the front, that those are the goals that we want to achieve very quickly, obviously concurrently, you're going to have to go through some process on the security issues, as well as the economic.

CNN: Where in that does this international conference fit? Can you give me your view on the expectations and where you'd like to see that conference go?

King Abdullah: Well, we have to be very careful how we articulate the conference. I think, realistically, an initial conference of bringing the international community together would be to be able to identify the parameters that we need to work on. There's still not only there's the political process, which is very important, i.e. the future of a Palestinian state and as I said, the future of Israeli security, but also there's a tremendous economic suffering of the Palestinian people at the moment. So you're going to have to address social, economic, and political needs all in one. And so, we have to be careful when we go into a conference that is not sort of a magical solution, you're not going to have a conference if it's the summer and all of a sudden, Israel is going to have peace with all its neighbours and it's going to be a Palestinian state, because there's going to be a procedure. But I think what the Americans will articulate is let's get a conference starting, that starts the process of being in the international community, and all the players involved in the peace process together.

CNN: Do you then share, to a certain extent, the president's concern that the mere fact that there is going to be a conference will, in and of itself, raise expectations to a level on the street that are going to make it hard to meet?

King Abdullah: Well, again, one has to be careful. I think that when you articulate the first levels of meetings of the extent of the capability of those meetings, I would imagine that if there is a conference in the near future, it would be done at a sort of a ministerial level initially. And then from there, building forward. But I think at the same time, building up expectations. Expectations are being built up already in the Middle East. And so, I think you have to reach out to the street that there is going to be hope. And so by having a conference, the end game at the end of the day, is to solve the Israeli-Palestinian problem and the Israeli-Arab one. So in other words, you have to, we need hope in the Middle East. We desperately need hope. Israelis, Arabs, Palestinians, all of us need hope. At the same time, trying to get a series of processes that makes sense over the next couple of months.

CNN: And so you acknowledge in that, it seems to me, that there are people on both sides. Certainly on the Palestinian side, for whom no settlement short of the Israel disappearing would be acceptable, and that somehow, that has to be dealt with?

King Abdullah: There're extremists on either side. And this is rhetoric that we have had to listen to from both sides, from as far back as I can remember as a small child. And that is always going to be there unless we get to a final settlement. And as we get closer and closer to a Palestinian state, and the closer we get to Israel security achieved, or recognised by all the Arabs, we're going to expect extremists on either side to develop the process. But why give them the time of day? It's going to be something that we're going to have to put up with. The closer we come to a final solution, the more the extremists are going to try and mess it up. We're going to have to take that as it comes along, and move beyond that.

CNN: The president the other day described Mr. Sharon, Prime Minister Sharon, as a man of peace. Do you share that view?

King Abdullah: Well, he is coming to Washington with a peace proposal. And I hope that it meets the expectations of the Arabs. I think if you look at Beirut again, and I think people don't understand the full significance of Beirut -- 22 Arab countries offered a tremendous olive branch to the Israeli people, really addressing 100 per cent of the concerns of the Israelis. In other words, security, prosperity, normalisation, a future for them in the region. I just hope that the peace process that Sharon has comes as close in emotion and from the heart as the Arab proposal came out of Beirut. So let's see what he has to offer to the president tomorrow. My late father said to me, as he said to many people, you know, “I work for peace for my children and their children's.” Well, when he says “my children,” that's my generation. I want to benefit from the hard work that our fathers have put in. I don't want to spend the rest of my life trying to set the right set of circumstances, so that maybe my children can take advantage of it. We maybe selfishly want to have a future for our generations. And I think I can speak on behalf of Palestinians, Israelis and Arabs alike.

CNN: I would not have brought your father up, but since you did, let me ask this. I hope this isn't improper. He worked so hard to see this conflict that's dominated both of our entire lives to end. Do you ever, in your quiet moments, wish you could talk to him now, ask him for help, ask him for advice?

King Abdullah: Obviously. I mean, we, in Jordan, would not be in the position of being able to move forward as we are with our economic, political and social reform if it wasn't for all the hard work that he did. I mean, time will tell, I think, in Jordanian history what His Late Majesty did for our country and for the region. And, you know, he knew how to deal with these issues. He was a statesman and a man of peace. And I think the lack of His Majesty and the lack of people such as Prime Minister Rabin are very sorely felt at this moment.

CNN: OK, it might have been his last visit to the United States, where he stood with President Clinton and there was this very powerful talk that they both did. And I remember sitting in my office, and I'm getting goose bumps. He took so many risks. He seemed so profoundly to believe that there was a solution out there, when other people, long before other people believed there was a solution out there.

King Abdullah: And you know we see it. We sense it. You know, it's there. And the sadness of having to deal with the situation now and listening to the rhetoric that we listen to on some of the Arab satellite stations, it's as if we're back living in the 60s and 70s. I mean, haven't we, as a Middle East learned? Violence is not going to bring a Palestinian state, nor is it going to bring Israeli security. And you know, we need to sit down and talk to each other. And it's just, it's just so sad to hear, so extremist views that all they talk about violence on either side. And we have to get beyond that. They really do.

CNN: Nice to meet you, Sir. Thank you.